Content area
When commenting on the suggestion that he was a nationalist and a Russian chauvinist, he said on the French scale of nationalism he would be "a Russian Gaullist". Rogozin said that for many Western diplomats hypocrisy was a way of life and that this took him a year of getting used to but now "I often speak to them in their own language". Rogozin said that high-ranking European officials had privately told him about their serious concerns about immigration. He warned that excessive immigration could "demolish Europe in the future" and destroy the current political system that had been in place throughout the post-war period.
Rogozin replied: "What is more, I actually dreamt of working in intelligence." "I was not accepted because my father-in-law was in the first main directorate of the KGB of the USSR, which is the one for foreign intelligence. At that time the resolution by [former KGB director and later the leader of the USSR Yuriy] Andropov not to accept children and in-laws had been issued. I returned from practical training in Cuba, where I studied instead of the fifth year [at university], fully confident that everything is OK, I had been through personnel checks, I was even spun on the spinning thing - i.e. passed the medical, and was supposed to go into intelligence. But I was told 'sorry' without the reasons being explained. Later I found out that this was to do with a fight against family groups in the KGB of the USSR and this is why I did not end up in the foreign intelligence service, and to be frank, I was left without the allocation of a post." Rogozin said that he was now working with intelligence but "I am not in the intelligence services and never was".
[Vladimir Pozner] noted that according to polls, the overwhelming majority of Russians had a negative attitude towards NATO and asked: "Is this bad?" Rogozin responded: "This is normal." Pozner asked: "Does this need to change with time?" Rogozin replied: "Let them prove that our public opinion needs to change."
Russian permanent representative to NATO, Dmitriy Rogozin, was interviewed by well-known TV presenter Vladimir Pozner in his programme "Pozner" on Russian state-controlled Channel One TV on 5 December.
Summary
Rogozin said that political competition was essential for Russia to move forward, agreed that WikiLeaks could be a device to first build credibility by truthful reports and then present provocational reports aimed against Russia and other countries opposing the USA.
Speaking about himself, Rogozin revealed that although he had been accepted to study acting by the leading cinematography institute, he had changed his mind because he lost interest. His aspiration to work as a TV journalist in Ostankino studio following his cum laude graduation as a journalist had been thwarted because he lacked the right connections - his father's position would have been useful for a military career.
Rogozin also said that he had "dreamt of working in intelligence" and he had been about to start an intelligence career - he had passed all the tests, including the medical - but was turned down because his father-in-law was working in the KGB foreign intelligence directorate and Yuriy Andropov had issued an order not to accept children or in-laws as part of his fight against family clans in the service.
When commenting on the suggestion that he was a nationalist and a Russian chauvinist, he said on the French scale of nationalism he would be "a Russian Gaullist". Rogozin said that for many Western diplomats hypocrisy was a way of life and that this took him a year of getting used to but now "I often speak to them in their own language". Rogozin said that high-ranking European officials had privately told him about their serious concerns about immigration. He warned that excessive immigration could "demolish Europe in the future" and destroy the current political system that had been in place throughout the post-war period.
Rogozin said that Ukraine and Georgia had no chance of joining NATO. He noted internal disagreements in NATO and said that he saw his role in working inside the organization and not leaving the Americans and Europeans alone together. He described the Lisbon summit as a breakthrough, said NATO did not represent a threat for Russia and praised President Dmitriy Medvedev's honest approach to US missile defence.
The following is a detailed account of the one-hour interview:
"I was not in opposition"
Pozner voiced a question left by a viewer on the website: "How did it happen that you came from the opposition and ended up in a state post?"
Rogozin replied: "I was not in opposition, I was in an alternative political party. Actually, being in opposition is a big problem for every active person - you cannot fulfil yourself or propose something to change the world around you. Therefore I thought that if this does not violate my principles - work on protecting the interests of the state and protecting Russia's national security is in keeping with my principles - I agreed to this job."
Pozner asked a question from the website: "Do you regard the Soviet system as criminal?"
Rogozin replied: "No, I do not regard the country in which I was born as criminal."
Russia needs political competition
Pozner asked a question from the website "Is it possible or necessary for our state to create a strong opposition or are all projects yet another Kremlin project?"
Rogozin said: "I am absolutely convinced that nothing can move forward in Russia without competition. Competition is the only thing that can save us from corruption because if a corrupt person knows that it is not just some policeman who is keeping an eye on him but his political competitor, who, to put it cynically, is trying to take his place - I think he would behave more carefully. Therefore, competition is necessary in the economy, it is necessary in personnel matters in state policy - i.e. the state must select to the authorities the best representatives of the nation - and of course, political competition, it is obligatory."
WikiLeaks
Pozner asked a question from the website: "What is your attitude towards the opinion that the publication of materials on the WikiLeaks website was not done without the participation of US security services and that this venture is of a planned nature and later publications will be of a provocative nature predominantly against Russia and other anti-American countries?"
Rogozin responded: "Some of my experts think exactly the same way. They think that the situation is similar to intelligence work which first gives the adversary truthful information through an illegal spy but later all of a sudden two, three or four pieces of disinformation are fed. However, the source has got used to truthfulness or lies that look like the truth. I do not rule out that someone could be manipulating a large flow of information which looks like leaks of compromising material and as a result some untruthful pieces of information will appear. Nevertheless, I want to say that so far everything is quite convincing, we are reading, particularly we are reading about our bloc, about relations with NATO, about Georgia and I am finding out many interesting things but not everything is interesting.
"The biggest thing that I did not like, the largest aspect that I did not like in these reports, were the assessments given of people. I think that one could argue with the political position of an opponent and do this quite harshly but one should not move to personalities. This is crude work."
Pozner asked: "In principle, in your view, is there an opportunity to check this information as to how truthful it is?"
Rogozin replied: "In due course, of course, because regarding the information from 2006-2008 we already know that the events took place. The only criterion for verification is practice."
Wanted to be actor, TV journalist and spy
Pozner said: "A little about yourself, Dmitriy Olegovich. Everyone knows you as a politician and as a diplomat but not everyone knows that you were about to be an actor, you actually applied for the acting faculty of VGIK [All-Union State Institute of Cinematography] and you were accepted. But you did not become an actor. Why?"
Rogozin replied: "I lost interest. This is because I am not an actor, I want to direct."
Pozner asked: "You did not apply for directing?"
Rogozin replied: "No, I mean directing in a broad sense."
Pozner said: "You actually lost interest and you did not become a journalist although, you see, you graduated from the faculty of journalism, international department and also did not become [a journalist].
Rogozin responded: "It did not work out, I was not taken on at Channel One".
Pozner asked: "Of television?"
Rogozin replied: "Yes."
Pozner said: "I see, this is how it was. You wanted to go there?"
Rogozin explained: "I wanted to work at the Ostankino studio. I was a trainee at the main editorial office for international news at the 'Vremya' programme ... I had a red diploma [graduated cum laude] ... I had two diplomas, one on Cuba and one on military policy of France but I wanted to work here, in Ostankino. However, other boys with more appropriate fathers were found for this."
Pozner said: "Although, listen, your father was as appropriate as they come: Oleg Konstantinovich Rogozin, a lieutenant-general, professor, a doctor of technical sciences, head of the directorate of future weapons systems, first deputy head of the armaments services of the Defence Ministry of the USSR, a Hero of Socialist Labour. How could someone be more appropriate?"
Rogozin explained: "The thing is that he was a good appropriate father at the time for having an appropriate and good military career but here there were boys from other families. You know, back then there was even a joke on the subject: Can a son of a general become a marshal? The answer was: No, he cannot, because the marshal also has a son."
When asked about his attraction to things military, Rogozin said: "Yes. Generally speaking, I am from a family that has military traditions going back to the 11th century."
Pozner remarked: "Even like this. I found out that your great-great grandfather was the police chief of Moscow, a major-general, but you did not follow this path."
Rogozin said he did not follow this path and did not know why. He said "I like journalism, I wanted to work, write, to meet people and also I probably did not particularly want to end up in a system where everything is predetermined. I wanted to prove to myself that I can do something and therefore I went for journalism but all my future was anyway connected with issues of war and peace." When asked, he admitted that his father had been disappointed by him not choosing a military career but later he stopped being disappointed when Dmitriy Rogozin's interest and political career were linked to work in military hotspots.
Pozner asked: "Tell me please, you went to work in the Committee of Youth Organizations and at that time the so-called public organizations in the Soviet Union often served as a front for secret services. Somewhere it has been said that you yourself had said that while working in the Committee of Youth Organizations you were closely linked to employees of special services. Is this is a made-up story or did you really say this?
Rogozin replied: "What is more, I actually dreamt of working in intelligence." "I was not accepted because my father-in-law was in the first main directorate of the KGB of the USSR, which is the one for foreign intelligence. At that time the resolution by [former KGB director and later the leader of the USSR Yuriy] Andropov not to accept children and in-laws had been issued. I returned from practical training in Cuba, where I studied instead of the fifth year [at university], fully confident that everything is OK, I had been through personnel checks, I was even spun on the spinning thing - i.e. passed the medical, and was supposed to go into intelligence. But I was told 'sorry' without the reasons being explained. Later I found out that this was to do with a fight against family groups in the KGB of the USSR and this is why I did not end up in the foreign intelligence service, and to be frank, I was left without the allocation of a post." Rogozin said that he was now working with intelligence but "I am not in the intelligence services and never was".
Attitude towards Stalin negative, "I am a Russian Gaullist"
Pozner noted that Rogozin was born on 21 December - on the same day as Iosif Stalin - and asked "What is you attitude towards Stalin?"
Rogozin said: "This is perhaps a difficult question for any person. My attitude towards Stalin is negative rather than positive." He said that in his recent book he had dealt with this and the way World War II had been handled and said: "Stalin, of course, inflicted horrific damage, he inflicted damage on my family, among others, and therefore my attitude towards him is complicated. At the same time I understand that - you know, there is no 'if' in history - and there was a time when, it appears, we could not have avoided someone like Stalin."
When asked whether he was a Russian chauvinist and nationalist, Rogozin said that "chauvinism is a stupid way of educating a nation. After all, I was brought up in a family with vast traditions, including with aristocratic traditions, and therefore I could not be a chauvinist in principle, because I have blood of various nations but they all served Russia and the people of Russia faithfully and truly. Therefore, I am not a chauvinist but I am a person who feels like a patriot of my country." Speaking of his position on the scale between the extremes in terms of nationalism, Rogozin described himself as a Russian Gaullist: "In France these are Gaullists, their views are close to me. Therefore, I am a Russian Gaullist, if you will."
Learning lessons of hypocrisy
Rogozin said that after a while he has learnt to respond to hypocritical talk by some Western diplomats "in their own language". He said about his posting in Europe that "my first observation, I think that this would be interesting for you, is that often hypocrisy is the modus vivendi - a way of life - for many diplomats in the West. In other words, they are speaking lies while looking you in the eye and you would like to believe them because their eyes glow with truth but at the same time you clearly understand that you will be deceived.
"I am now speaking of this but for some reason what immediately comes to mind is all this ideology regarding missile defence. When we are told that Iran is to blame but the system for intercepting missiles is for some reason deployed not near Iran but somewhere near our north-western borders and at the same time no-one even smiles at you when you ask them why they are deceiving us.
"Here there are particularities of the behaviour of some of our Western, including West European, colleagues, when certain bird language of diplomats exists and is being created and this language could entirely confuse you, you will lose sight of where the truth is, where the beginning of the story is and where it ends. For me it was a very difficult phenomenon, it took me a year to get used to it and now I want to say that I often speak to them in their own language."
Immigration to destroy European political system
When asked about the fact that with the exception of the USA, it has become more difficult for Russians to get visas to Western countries despite growing talk about visa-free travel, Rogozin said that the West has been overwhelmed with immigrants from Eastern and Central Europe as it is and would not want to add Russians to this influx.
Rogozin noted the growing xenophobia in the West and said that during confidential meetings high ranking European officials express serious concerns about excessive immigration. He went on to say: "What could this lead to and is already leading to?" "This could lead, like a pendulum, to the collapse of Europe's political system. First, having opened all the floodgates for the flow of migrants and then suddenly having seen that the centres of the largest cities start changing and turning not into Europe but something totally different ... then suddenly parties start coming to power not from the traditional political spectrum, not centre-right, but right-wing parties that even we in Russia have not dreamt of. I think that this will demolish Europe in the future. In political sense it will destroy the current political system that has been in existence for entire post-war period."
Appointment to NATO
Commenting on his appointment to the post of envoy to NATO, Rogozin said he had had a conversation with the then president, Vladimir Putin, a day before leaving for Brussels and although he could not reveal what was discussed "I will tell you what I felt about why I was going there. This was a difficult situation, the beginning of the year 2008, Ukraine and Georgia were about to join NATO or be given the membership action plan, this was a situation where passions were escalating in South Caucasus, i.e. it smelt of war, this was an extreme low point in our relations with NATO, i.e. you cannot think anything worse and essentially, I suppose that the president decided not to send a diplomat there but a politician with quite serious abilities for political manoeuvring, a person who can speak and convince others of him being right, and who knows how to take his own decisions. At least I understood this to have been my task, maybe I did not understand correctly but this is how I understood it. It seems to me that I coped with this task. At least, nearly three years after I left for Brussels, our relations are quite pragmatic and predictable."
Foreign languages
Rogozin said that apart from Russian also spoke fluent French, Spanish, Italian, English, spoke some Czech but had forgotten it and some Ukrainian which he had also forgotten.
Ukraine and Georgia have no chance of joining NATO
Rogozin said that Ukraine and Georgia had no chance of joining NATO: "there is none ... I will explain this very simply. This is not because we put our blood-drenched paw over the free democracies of Georgia and Ukraine. Of course it is not about this. The very prospect of Ukraine joining NATO split Ukraine almost geographically in two halves and a total and permanent political crisis began in this country, which led to a regime change, to the change of president and so on, i.e. the political elite of Ukraine, even its pro-Atlantic part, understood that this issue will simply lead to the degradation of Ukraine's statehood - they took fright and moved aside. This is the reason.
Speaking of Georgia, Rogozin said: "NATO will never accept as a member a country that has problems of this kind with its neighbours. Then, there is the question in what borders one would accept Georgia.
"There are two options. To accept it in the borders recognized by the West, i.e. the old Soviet borders, or as we say, in Stalin's borders - as I like to say, so that it feels unpleasant for them. This means that they would need to accept Georgia together with Abkhazia and South Ossetia, with [their presidents] Eduard Kokoyty and Sergey Bagapsh and with our military bases. This is not possible.
"There is a second option: to accept what has been left after the escapade by [Georgian President Mikheil] Saakashvili, but for this the West must do what Russian President Dmitriy Anatolyevich Medvedev did. It must acknowledge the existence of a new reality, the existence of Georgia without Abkhazia and without South Ossetia within its new borders. The West will not go for one or the other. This is why I say: never."
Rogozin explained that it was not necessary for NATO to formalize its relationship with Georgia and that de facto Georgia is taking part in all NATO programmes, sending many soldiers to Afghanistan to die and Georgia is also taking part in military transit to Afghanistan. Rogozin noted that the informal relationship suited NATO and it had no need to take on the responsibility for Georgia and its future policy.
NATO unlikely to be able to fool Russia
Pozner said there were very many questions about the possibility that NATO would deceive Russia and asked whether there was a mistake of some kind to be made.
Rogozin said: "There is no mistake. First, the president personally is dealing with the NATO direction and the prime minister is dealing with this - they are fully informed about all the events, I simply know this because it concerns the issue of war and peace and Russia's security, this is constantly in the field of view of the country's leadership. This is the first thing.
"The second thing is that our best diplomats are working on the NATO area, the best. It is difficult to deceive these people, they are professionals, they understand everything, they see the situation, which is a suitcase with a hidden compartment. In a nutshell, I don't think that here one could pass the judgment that Russian diplomacy is naive in relations with NATO.
Task of working inside divided NATO
"However, what is NATO? It is a military-political alliance of Europe and the Anglo-Saxons, headed by the Americans, where everything is not simple at all internally, where there are Greece and Turkey, who have difficult relations with each other, where there are Balkan countries, which have difficult relations with each other, where there are the French and Germans who have difficult relations with Washington, etc. Thus, this is a living organism, where we must not be on the outside - here I don't mean a formal membership but work, where we are in terms of work - we must be inside. My task, the way I see it and the way it is formulated by my leadership, is not to give the Americans and the Europeans a chance to be together on their own - I need to be there constantly ... to be present at everything, present my point of view, including in an attacking manner."
Lisbon summit a breakthrough
Rogozin said that the latest Russia-NATO summit in Lisbon was certainly a breakthrough because "first, the NATO strategic concept was adopted taking into account what we insisted on. We insisted on two things: first, it was interesting what NATO was thinking about itself and secondly, what NATO thinks about Russia. On two questions we received quite firm answers, taking into account our positions. First, NATO announced that it respects international law and speaks of the leading role of the UN Security Council in resolving issues of deploying force. This is very important because until now NATO tried to compete with the UN. Secondly, with regard to Russia itself, we saw assurances that no issues in Europe, regarding European security, could be resolved without Russia and even less so against Russia. In other words, NATO is today interested in relations with the Russian Federation and NATO itself announced that it is not a threat to Russia. This was very important for us."
NATO not a threat for Russia
Rogozin said he did not think NATO represented a threat to Russia: "I will tell you something that may surprise you, particularly coming from me, I think that NATO is not a threat for us. At least NATO as it is now. For one simple reason - I will explain what I mean - inside it there are countries which actually have deep relations with us and which do not allow NATO to antagonize and even less become a real threat for the Russian Federation. We had a test in August 2008 when Washington actually insisted - there were forces of this kind, I cannot disclose who, but we know - there were forces that called for landing a special expedition corps, an American corps in the South Caucasus and it was the Europeans who blocked this issue. Essentially, NATO hung to the trouser legs of the Americans and prevented them from acting, and the Americans limited themselves to bringing individual ships to the Black Sea, which the Turks also accepted as adhering to the Montreux convention in terms of size and number. This was a show of force but no more - they couldn't do anything. And this was the moment when our relations were at their most difficult. Therefore I think that inside NATO there are forces that are unfriendly towards us and who indeed sometimes try to deceive us.
"Actually, this is what the statement by President Medvedev in his address to the Federal Assembly was about. It said that we are ready to cooperate on missile defence but in an adult manner, seriously, namely in the region where missile threats can theoretically appear in the future. However, if on the pretext of protecting Europe from missile attacks you deploy strategic missile interception systems near the area of acceleration of Russia's strategic intercontinental ballistic missiles, we will be forced to deploy our new strike systems. This is an honest approach in our relations and I think there should be pragmatic relations of this kind. We do not need new additional enemies."
"Why do I doubt that there is a real military threat from the western direction? Look how they live. They have such a sweet and soft life, in a bourgeois manner, everything is good there, they like everything, they cannot give up the high level of consumption they have got used to and therefore they need NATO so that it would hold back and strangle the threats at remote boundaries, so as to retain the high level of consumption and their European sweet bourgeois life - they will not wage a war against us, they are afraid of us."
Pozner noted that according to polls, the overwhelming majority of Russians had a negative attitude towards NATO and asked: "Is this bad?" Rogozin responded: "This is normal." Pozner asked: "Does this need to change with time?" Rogozin replied: "Let them prove that our public opinion needs to change."
Passion for riding motorbikes
Rogozin also spoke of his passion for riding a motorbike and described how he learnt to ride when he had free time on his hands in 2007. He said: "I travelled to the city on 4 May 2007 and I climbed off the motorbike on 24 October. I was travelling only by bike among all the traffic jams in Moscow, I love this type of sport, it is convenient for me travel like this, I get to all meetings on time - but this does not mean at all that I have lost my mind."
Rogozin, who has the rank of Master of Sport in handball, said that he now mostly plays basketball as it was difficult to get a team together for handball.
Credit: Channel One TV, Moscow, in Russian 2009 5 Dec 10
Channel One TV, Moscow, in Russian 2009 5 Dec 10/BBC Monitoring/(c) BBC